Last post by Gary Young in topic petite model measurements

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How Do You Dueling With Model Who Has No Experience

 
 
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My models has no experience and its hard to work with cus they don't much help your portfolio.
Is it my fault cus my limited skills?

I see nothing wrong technically with your exposures. There's nothing wrong with the models, although the posing seems slightly awkward.

I say always make the model comfortable, work inside their range, do easy stuff until they have warmed up, then go for the more avant garde. Practice makes for better, if not perfect.

Then there is the possibility that there may be a language problem. If the models aren't native speakers of your language, or if all of you are communicating in second languages, then problems can arise.
If I haven't been there, I'm still planning on going!
If I haven't done it, I've still got time to try!

Charles Griffin:

I see nothing wrong technically with your exposures. There's nothing wrong with the models, although the posing seems slightly awkward.

I say always make the model comfortable, work inside their range, do easy stuff until they have warmed up, then go for the more avant garde. Practice makes for better, if not perfect.

Then there is the possibility that there may be a language problem. If the models aren't native speakers of your language, or if all of you are communicating in second languages, then problems can arise.



Thanks Charles G.
I think you're right, cus English is my second language.

There are few professions where you need to know the ins and outs of personalities more than in photography.

Part of your art is drawing out the core of the individual for the role they have to play.

Think of modeling as acting. Think of yourself as the director. A director on a movie set has to do anything within reason to get the desired emotion, effect and performance out of the actor.

Sometimes, when dealing with unskilled models, the photographer has to create a situation in which the proper emotion is shown.

I have had models and the need for a happy, exuberant scene...not overboard with exaggerated expressions, but genuine joy restrained by the very real fact that people rarely let out their true emotional feelings in public. So, I create situations where the emotions are genuine. For scenes such as this I have on occassion had an order f flowers delivered during the shoot. That moment of realization in the model that the flowers are for her causes her emotional guard or nervousness to be let down for a few brief seconds and in that time I can get some shots of honest emotion.

On the flip side I have had to make models mad to get an angry shot. Bore them to death to obtain ennui. Treat them like a princess to get love or longing. Etc., etc., etc.

At the end of the day, however, everyone needs to realize everything was just an act to get the job done. A photographer working without directors has to have thick skin sometimes.

And then the bottom line is that you have to have a firm idea in your head before the shoot of exactly what you want and how you are going to achieve your goal.

Charles' point about communication is an interesting one which brings back memories of a London model I worked with several years ago. She spoke a deep cockney and gave me more communications problems than any other foreign model I have worked with. We were both speaking English (I think) but neither of us could understand a word the other was saying. We did several dozen shoots over the course of two weeks. By the second shoot I brought along with me a local model who would pose and then the London model copy. Other shoots I started pantomiming what I needed. I also typed up instructions.

All communication is basically the same. We share the same experiences worldwide and react to emotional situations in the same way. Outward manifestation may be different, but the core is the same. Languages formed based upon our mimicking or assigning sounds to things that naturally described them to other people. Why language has evolved and become more complex, the root entomologies remain. Find the commonalities and you will suddenly find you can communicate very well with people who speak other languages.

A happy smile or gesture gets a happy smile in return. A dissatisfied scowl causes worry and insecurity. Sticking out your tongue gets a laugh. Scratching your armpit suddenly distracts attention and causes a wide range of emotional looks to ripple across a face in a fraction of a second.

Think about what situations provoke various emotions in you and imitate them for your model.

Be patient. You can never rush something and have it turn out perfect.

Be confidant. If you show weakness or uncertainty, your model will not stay in role.


(And, I try not to duel with models. :lol: I am quite handy with guns and blades but do not like cleaning up the bloody mess they leave behind.)
:cantlook: Have faith that the universe will unfold as it should :cool:

As always good advice Karl.

:thumbup:

Yo Lewis,

U should showcase your works with the better models and those with a full creative team (Top Hong Kong Makeup artists, Hairstylists, Fashion Stylists and art directors). Loved your work with Bro Harry Lam.

Having a Fashion Stylist or Art Directors will help in shoots with raw and inexperienced models. Alternatively, a mood board or sample pictures can help to illustrate and help these new models to visualise the mood and poses that are required to achieve your desirable effect. Its hard for many raw models to jump right in and perform, especially for high fashion shoots. However, they will need all the opportunities to gain the necessary experience and it can be seen why many model agencies in Hong kong send their models to fashion photographers based locally for test shoots.

Cheers,
Tuck

I'm finding Karl is a great rescorce here even tho I'm new to the site. He is spot on as usual.

To me the key is making the model feel as comfortable with you, and you with her, as possable. At the same time as you are doing what Karl spoke about. This is hard at first as everybody is different and you need different ways of doing this. Trust me you can make them mad at you to get a shot, while they fully trust you. You dont need to be thier best friend, but the trust has to be there!!! If you are going to do a nude she has to be more comfortable being nude with you there, than with her own boyfriend. This is hard as well, but you cant get the best shots with out this trust. They may be good, but I dont think they can be great... the slightest apprehension will seep thru to the shot.

As for your shots They are pretty good. A few are blown out a bit, and a bit overprocessed. Also shadows on the back drop. But in general they are not that bad.The girls seem comfortable ( as mentioned above) with you. I think you are on the right track.

If your model is inexperienced, it's more work for you, naturally. that's why as a photographer, you have to be prepared to do your own upgrading. it's not enough to just use an experienced model, because if you're inexperienced, that model will not work with you either. i suggest practising more with someone on your level until you're able to coach the inexperienced model.
you are the one capturing the photographs. the end results depend on you. so the stress is more on you the photographer.
you have to know what to look for, and how to tell the model what to do.
if you're inexperienced, then it's difficult.

i suggest doing a lot of homework. go to the library, borrow books , videos,etc.. and study study study the great photographers in fashion, glamour, or others.
see if you can understand why model stand in a certain way, pose a certain way, why they stretch, why they lean forward, backwards, etc...
why being too relax makes a model's tummy pouch, why twisiting too much makes the neck or waist crease, why not turning at the waist enough makes her look "fat",etc...

notice it's the little things we tend to miss. why a model looks better on tippy toes,
why the weight is distributed over her body , and the equilibrium.

lots of things, i know. the great artists, photographers, painters,... all studied the human body. they study muscles,etc.. anatomy. it's no coincidence that the best artists are also the best student in anatomy, balance, physics, lighting, etc.

for you, i suggest to show the model what you want them to do. not just say it.
make copies of model poses, and show them. this is what i want you to do...
and explain . when they look and hear you , they will have a better idea , then let them relax a bit, practise... like a dress rehearsal... if you're shooting polaroids or digital, you can spare a few rough shots, shoot while they are rehearsing so you can look at them with your model. and say, ok, this is good, this one your weight is a bit too much , try leaning the other way,etc.
be specific, no vague instructions... lean forward :thumbup: look lighter :doh:
i hope you understand.

good luck, keep practising... and do your homework.

here's a little anecdote i used to tell my students, whenever i do teach ... this is a favourite all the time:
a musician was looking for directions to royal albert hall. he stopped an old man, who looked like a music conductor. he asked, "sir, can you tell me how i can get to the royal albert hall?"
the old man laughed and said while patting the man on his shoulder...
"PRACTISE, MY SON, LOTS OF PRACTISE":D:lol:

that's just it! good luck.
thanks for letting me add my comment to your thread. CHEERS :thumbup:
you provide the character, and i will take care of the rest to capture your persona.

Thank you very much all, and I'm very appreciated your positive input! :thumbup:
Here are two new pics just add and please let me know what do you think.

Lewis Lam,
the latest post is excellent. I can honestly say that you know your photography techniques and lighting. for that , you really have a lot more going for you than many photographers.
even if your models are new or inexperienced, what i see here from your portfolio , i must say it's all very impressive.
if you can work with these models to get them to do more quality works like these,
i don't see a problem for you. WELL DONE!
those are very professional looking works you have here.:thumbup:
you provide the character, and i will take care of the rest to capture your persona.

Dear Carib,

You're comments are extremely informative and am greatly appreciated!
Many many thanks :D

Beast regards,

Lewis

Carib Goodies:

There are few professions where you need to know the ins and outs of personalities more than in photography.

Part of your art is drawing out the core of the individual for the role they have to play.

Think of modeling as acting. Think of yourself as the director. A director on a movie set has to do anything within reason to get the desired emotion, effect and performance out of the actor.

Sometimes, when dealing with unskilled models, the photographer has to create a situation in which the proper emotion is shown.

I have had models and the need for a happy, exuberant scene...not overboard with exaggerated expressions, but genuine joy restrained by the very real fact that people rarely let out their true emotional feelings in public. So, I create situations where the emotions are genuine. For scenes such as this I have on occassion had an order f flowers delivered during the shoot. That moment of realization in the model that the flowers are for her causes her emotional guard or nervousness to be let down for a few brief seconds and in that time I can get some shots of honest emotion.

On the flip side I have had to make models mad to get an angry shot. Bore them to death to obtain ennui. Treat them like a princess to get love or longing. Etc., etc., etc.

At the end of the day, however, everyone needs to realize everything was just an act to get the job done. A photographer working without directors has to have thick skin sometimes.

And then the bottom line is that you have to have a firm idea in your head before the shoot of exactly what you want and how you are going to achieve your goal.

Charles' point about communication is an interesting one which brings back memories of a London model I worked with several years ago. She spoke a deep cockney and gave me more communications problems than any other foreign model I have worked with. We were both speaking English (I think) but neither of us could understand a word the other was saying. We did several dozen shoots over the course of two weeks. By the second shoot I brought along with me a local model who would pose and then the London model copy. Other shoots I started pantomiming what I needed. I also typed up instructions.

All communication is basically the same. We share the same experiences worldwide and react to emotional situations in the same way. Outward manifestation may be different, but the core is the same. Languages formed based upon our mimicking or assigning sounds to things that naturally described them to other people. Why language has evolved and become more complex, the root entomologies remain. Find the commonalities and you will suddenly find you can communicate very well with people who speak other languages.

A happy smile or gesture gets a happy smile in return. A dissatisfied scowl causes worry and insecurity. Sticking out your tongue gets a laugh. Scratching your armpit suddenly distracts attention and causes a wide range of emotional looks to ripple across a face in a fraction of a second.

Think about what situations provoke various emotions in you and imitate them for your model.

Be patient. You can never rush something and have it turn out perfect.

Be confidant. If you show weakness or uncertainty, your model will not stay in role.


(And, I try not to duel with models. :lol: I am quite handy with guns and blades but do not like cleaning up the bloody mess they leave behind.)

Porter's camera store in Cedar Falls, Iowa has some very good books on posing. You may want to look them up at www.porters.com. Also, a good friendship with a model you use on a regular basis sure helps.

Patience works wonders, build trust with a model even an inexpereicned one, with patience and trust you can work wonders.

Most models are happy to work in situations. one thing you can also try is working with former models who have retired, they can teach you a lot about shooting and posing and are often happy to get back in front of a camera again. I learned a lot working with a retired model, it made me a better photographer.

Thanks for your love Nathan

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